Pope Announces A Change

[charlieq]

Mass should be said in Latin...it was a mistake to change it to venacular. Conservatives applaud the decision, Moderates and Liberals disapprove, they claim it will upset relations between Jews and Catholics. The Latin Mass has a part where the priest prays for the conversion of Jews.
I enjoyed Mass in Latin...it had a mystique. It was also a 1500 year old tradition. Guess I'm getting old, I don't like the changes made in my lifetime regarding religion, family, baseball, etc.

[Deleted]

I also like the Mass in Latin. They should have never changed it.

[Fran Gyomory]

The Pope actually loosened the use of the Tridentine Mass. It won't be a regular thing in any diocese though. What he said was that local bishops can determine if and when the Tridentine Mass (in Latin) is used. Personally, I miss the "old" Mass and the mystique of it all. I learned it all in Latin and haven't forgotten much so I am ready for it. Will be difficult to follow to the letter in some churches. Here at St. Timothy our altar is "in the round) so the Priest's back is always to some of the congregants.

I don't recall the passage where we prayed for the conversion of Jews. Can you help me find it in the Mass??

Wonder if they will print new missals with Latin on one side and English on the other???

Personally, again, I am delighted with the loosening of the restrictions. I really enjoy the spirituality of the old Mass and it absolutely takes away the protestanization of the Mass.

[Deleted]

Fran, that prayer for the conversion was used once a year in the Good Friday liturgy. If you buy the Daily Roman Missal, you will have Latin one one side and English on the other (I have one). I too, miss the OLD Mass. Right now it is only available at one parish in the Venice Diocese (Sarasota)

If you get the opportunity to attend a Tridentine Mass, the priest uses the 1962 Roman Missal. This is available for purchase online if interested.

[charlieq]

This article from the Jerusalem Post explains above question.
The text of a "Motu Proprio" (papal decision) regarding the revival of a controversial Latin mass will be made public this week, The Jerusalem Post has learned. Vatican officials stressed that the current text, which formerly called Jews "perfidious," contains no derogatory reference to Jews.

The text is based on the Tridentine Mass promulgated by the Council of Trent in the 16th century. Originally this mass contained a Good Friday prayer for the conversion of "the perfidious Jews."

But in the 1960s, after his historic meeting with the historian and Holocaust survivor Jules Isaac, Pope John XXIII ordered this terminology removed, and the version that will be used dates back to 1962, when this phrase had already been eliminated.

Yet controversy continues over Benedict XVIth's decision to "facilitate and clarify" the possibility of performing mass in this Latin version. After the Second Vatican Council, the Latin mass was abolished in favor of using local languages, for the sake of improved communication. Only 2,000 to 3,000 people, following Cardinal Lefebvre in France and in Italy's Piedmont region continued using the Latin version. They ordained their own bishops, who were subsequently excommunicated by John Paul II. Benedict is apparently attempting to reintegrate this group into the church.

Now, any parish with at least 30 members will be able to request permission from their bishop to perform the Latin mass.

Some Catholic circles, particularly those most open to interfaith dialogue, are concerned this change will divide Catholics and undo some of the good work of the Second Vatican Council.

Jewish groups are upset that the mass contain a prayer for the conversion of the Jews.

While the Tridentine Mass contained a Good Friday prayer asking that God "lift the veil covering the hearts of Jews so that they may recognize Jesus Christ our Lord," the 1965 version states: "Let us pray for the Jews, that the face of the Lord our God may shine on them so that they too recognize the redeemer of all, Jesus Christ, our Lord."

The prayer continues: "Listen to your church so that those who were once your chosen people may reach the fulfillment of redemption."

Contemporary Good Friday prayers no longer ask for the conversion of Jews, and in contrast to the old version, the Jewish covenant with God is presented as eternally valid.

During Easter celebrations one can hear these words in the modern version: "Lord our God, who chose the Jews before all other men, to receive his word, help them to continue progressing in the love of your name and faithfulness to your covenant." The prayer continues with wishes that Jews may reach "the fulfillment of redemption."Print Subscribe
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[Deleted]

Great article Charlie. Thanks. (Introibo Ad Altare Dei)

[Deleted]

going back to latin should thrill mel gibson and his holocust denyer father

[Deleted]

I understand that today's Jewish people might take offense to the prayer's reference to them as "the perfidious Jews", and rightly so. Personally, I don't really care if it is reinstated or not. However, I did read in this past Sunday's paper where many Jewish people were outraged and said that the "Latin" mass should not be allowed back, it was insulting to them as believers of their faith. And you know what, I take offense to that.

[Deleted]

i think the outrage has more to with the fact that the latin contains the perfidious Jews statement rather then the mass being said in latin et al -- i personally dont care either way regardless of what is said or not --- people as a whole have been trying to kill or convert jews since the beginning of recorded time

[Fran Gyomory]

Charlie, got your note. Seems that on Good Friday the Mass included a prayer for the conversion of perfidious Jews. I never remembered that part of the Mass on Good Friday but apparrently it was there. Thanks for sending the reference to me.

[Fran Gyomory]

I still have my old missal and my mom's old missal from pre-Vatican II.

Since the offensive statement/prayer has been removed, why do Jewish people feel offended? The prayer will not be said. What's the big deal. I, personally, won't try to convert anyone. If anyone sees me as an example of a witness for Christ, so be it but I am not an evangelist. What's the big deal about the Mass? I'll be delighted for it to come back.

As for Mel Gibson and his father, his dad is a sicko. Anyone who lives and breathes that doesn't believe that the holocaust took place is flat out lying to themselves. All you have to do is read historical accounts with accompanying photos to see it was real. Gibson's father is denying history. Mel Gibson, unfortunately, obviously believes what his father has preached for years. I have long admired Gibson's work but I will not support in any way, someone who has such prejudice in their heart for anyone. I believe his Passion of the Christ was a wonderful movie and one that I am glad I saw. It brought to life for me what happened back in the day of Jesus and seemed historically accurate.

God help those who don't believe history. God help us that they exist.

[Deleted]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about! I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the Orthodox conduct their services in Hebrew. Why would any Non Catholic care that the Church conducts services in Latin?

[Deleted]

[quote author=bx58nyc
I don't understand what all the fuss is about! I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the Orthodox conduct their services in Hebrew.
[/quote]

and there i was worrying for nothing

[Lenny]

Alot of folks left the church when they changed from Latin to English. Now after all these years, alot of folks will get mad and leave using the excuse that they don't understand what's being said. It never should have changed in the first place. All these changes stir up controversy. The church is between a rock and a hard place now.

[Deleted]

It wil not be wide spread.....available at certain Churches....English is here to stay.

[helenh1]

I may be in the minority but I could never keep up with the priest, he always finished mass way ahead of me. But I was upset when the change came, human nature I guess, not to like change. Now I love my english mass, I enjoy knowing whats going on and I enjoy the beauty of the prayers. It's so nice to follow along rather than try to catch up.

[Deleted]

CHARLIE I AGREE WITH YOU 100% RE:

CHARLIE QUOTE:
I don't like the changes made in my lifetime regarding religion, family, baseball, etc.

I LOVED THE MASS IN LATIN.
AND THE CHANGES I NEVER LIKED.
VATICAN I OR II PROTESTANTIZED THE MASS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDNT LIKE THE CHANGES.

[Deleted]

HEY LOUGEE WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?

LOUGEES QUOTE:
going back to latin should thrill mel gibson and his holocust denyer father.

WE ALL KNOW THE HOLOCAUST HAPPENED AND WE LOVED THE LATIN MASS, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM ANYWAY.?

JIMMY

[Deleted]

jimmy said:

HEY LOUGEE WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?

LOUGEES
going back to latin should thrill mel gibson and his holocust denyer father.
WE ALL KNOW THE HOLOCAUST HAPPENED AND WE LOVED THE LATIN MASS, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM ANYWAY.?>>>

mels father is a vocal denyer of the holocust

mel has an "offshoot" catholic church that he sponsors that is not approved by the vatican -- his services are in latin --- and because the pope is saying do the services in latin i thought it would make mel and his father happy

[Deleted]

Lou, not sure that it is "Offshoot"...I believe he attends services at a Chapel where the use of Latin has been approved.

[Deleted]

[quote author=bx58nyc
Lou, not sure that it is "Offshoot"...I believe he attends services at a Chapel where the use of Latin has been approved.[/quote]

if thats the case then im sorry for the posting error --but after reading some of the links im still not sure that it is vatican approved

you are correct --here is the link
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,111979,00.html

and
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184668,00.html

www.religioustolerance.org/chrgibson1.htm

or just google mel gibson church

[Fran Gyomory]

Mel Gibson and about 200 other "traditional" roman catholics built their own church in southern California. They use the tridentine mass only. The church has been in use for several years now and the entire Gibson family attends regularly. Just thought I would share this information as Gibson help pay for the building himself with his own funds. I do not know that this church or its' priests are under Vatican approval. Likely, it is not but now that the Pope has loosenedthe use of this mass, they might be considered acceptable. However, there is more to the beliefs of "traditional" catholics than the Latin mass folks.

[Fran Gyomory]

Mel's father still lives in his own little world in Austrailia!

[Deleted]

frangyomory said:

Mel's father still lives in his own little world in Austrailia!

tton Peter Gibson (born August 26, 1918) is a writer on religion and a Holocaust denier most notable for being the father of actor Mel Gibson. He was born in Montclair, New Jersey and raised in Chicago, Illinois, the son of businessman John Hutton Gibson and Australian opera star Eva Mylott. He currently resides in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania,[1] after living many years in Texas and for a time in Summersville, West Virginia.[2]

[Deleted]

frangyomory said:

Mel Gibson and about 200 other "traditional" roman catholics built their own church in southern California. They use the tridentine mass only. The church has been in use for several years now and the entire Gibson family attends regularly. Just thought I would share this information as Gibson help pay for the building himself with his own funds. I do not know that this church or its' priests are under Vatican approval. Likely, it is not but now that the Pope has loosenedthe use of this mass, they might be considered acceptable. However, there is more to the beliefs of "traditional" catholics than the Latin mass folks.

You are correct Fran. Some of the Traditional Movements are NOT in good standing with the Vatican.